# 11 Jamie Wyngaard - Cancel Culture

Jamie and I recently collaborated as panelists in a digital marketing masterclass, where Jamie spoke about cancel culture. I mean, is there a more relevant topic at the moment?

It is a movement that has changed from empowering to toxic and we're unpacking it all! 

Feel free to add your comments and let us know if you've been part of a cancel culture movement and how it impacted you or the brands involved.

The recording of the masterclass is available here: https://vimeo.com/670574691/8e2cc59132

Transcript

Pink Podcasts - Jamie Wyngaart

Kirsten Maarschalk: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Jamie cancel culture. This is such a pressing topic, and I'm so keen to discuss it with you. I mean, you and I had this, this collaboration recently with digital campus. And when you started speaking about cancel culture and I watched your presentation, it [00:02:00] just sparked so much for me. And, I'm so, so keen to discuss more with you.

Kirsten Maarschalk: So thanks so much for coming on to my show. 

Jamie Wyngaart: It's a pleasure. I think your presentation was also amazing. Must get the stuff from Wits. They did a good job with a, with the entire session, but cancel culture is quite a sensitive topic. It's something that's been, almost feel like it's changed from the good that it's supposed to do of giving the, the marginalized, the voice.

Jamie Wyngaart: And it's now become a tool for bullying. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: It's ironic. It's exactly that it's like something that, that would cancel out bullies has now just become this massive bullying tactic. So for those who don't know, it's obviously a bit of a buzz word, and very often, you know, people hear buzzwords and just expect that they are meant to understand what it means, but for those who don't understand, cancel culture, what exactly is 

Jamie Wyngaart: it?

Jamie Wyngaart: So cancel culture initially. And this is a nice quote that I like it's, let's say. Um, I may not have power, but what I do have is the power to [00:03:00] ignore you. And that's where it started. That's where says that we, as a society, as individuals that usually look up to celebrities or people of influence can actually say, I'm not going to give you that influence anymore.

Jamie Wyngaart: I'm going to ignore you. And that changes the narrative because they often are quite bit of problematic Influencers. And what cancel culture does is takes the power away from those influencers. And I would say gives it back to the hands of the consumers. Um, in the real world, we've witnessed this the way the youth overthrew Apartheid or the way the world took on the Berlin wall.

Jamie Wyngaart: So this isn't cancel culture. Isn't a new concept, just that. Now with introduction of technology, Anyone can become a cyber warrior with the little phone, with the keyboard where it's about saying, I don't like that. And I'm going to cancel you. And I'm going to tell all my friends, not to listen to you and not to buy your things and not to be there with you or not to be associated with you.

Jamie Wyngaart: And what's [00:04:00] happened. The spinoff of cancel culture is now because of this brands not feel threatened and say, okay, because I'm supporting Jamie. If Jamie gets canceled, I need to completely remove myself from Jamie, not sponsor Jamie. Not be part of Jamie, delete all Jamie's when he features in our things and to have a clear slate, because if I'm associated with Jamie and Jamie's canceled, people can turn that on and cancel me. Confusing

Jamie Wyngaart: cause I'm Jamie, but, but that's the way, the way bands are seeing this and the difficult thing that on this. When it started when castle countryside, it became popular because it gave the power into the marginalized, which we are all for. But the problem here is the, the Karen's of this world, the people that argue about things that are very frivolous and fragile and doesn't need to be thrown out of proportion, but make a big deal out of it because.

Jamie Wyngaart: In their reality, it is a big deal. And I respect that. I respect that in your situation in your life, something could be very offensive. It could be a big deal, [00:05:00] but in the same breath, I want to say, then let that be your reality and also accept someone else's reality that that might not be as offensive or might not be as big of a deal because what's happening now is because brands feel threatened when a partner of theirs gets canceled and they have to take a step back the side effect is,

Jamie Wyngaart: everybody else that wanted to be part of that culture you're still wanting to be part of that canceled persona. Now also loses out, and it's not just from the consumer side, but also everyone associated in a steam of royalties or an esteem of working on the same product. For instance, if I look at R Kelly, that was a very, very big cancellation and.

Jamie Wyngaart: Even, I would say it's rightfully that he's canceled. But what I don't like is cool, justice was served, is not saying to present his net worth is negative 2 million. He did a lot of bad stuff bad in the, I want to say bad loosely because [00:06:00] good and bad is also another thing of perception, but what I don't like, because all his music that is worked on has been the root of all the streaming services.

Jamie Wyngaart: Everybody else that has worked with him. So, um, the producers, the directors, the managers, the brands, they're also taking on getting any more royalties or money from it because what people think of Athens, the odds, because they're the face of something. They think they get all the money, they get like 5% the rest of the money gets put up to the entire team that worked on it.

Jamie Wyngaart: But because some, because one person was problematic, Everybody else loses out. And also we can't listen to the music anymore. Yeah, unfortunately, 

Kirsten Maarschalk: well, this is very interesting because it raises another topic that is a little bit more recent. Um, the whole Joe Rogan, Neil young Spotify saga. I mean, it's quite crazy.

Kirsten Maarschalk: Um, How I actually came across it is I follow Brenae brown. I'm a huge Brenae brown fan and. [00:07:00] I saw she posted on Instagram saying just blunt like this, just saying I will no longer be running my podcasts, uh, effective immediately. And I will let you know if, and when my podcast ever comes back on to air.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And I was like, gee, that's sudden and I just listened to an episode of hers like a few days ago. And I love her podcast. You know, she's got two different podcasts that I subscribe to you and. Like why? And I started going through the comments and I just saw people saying, well done Brené!, you're so bold, you're so brave this, this is leadership, um, hats off to you and Neil young.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And I was like, what is going on here? But I've missed something because, because how is this a brave move? And then I went into research and, and it was just very new. Neil young had threatened Spotify, um, that if, if they didn't cancel Joe Rogan for misinforming people about, uh, the COVID crisis and vaccination that he was going to pull his music and he did, he pulled his music away.[00:08:00] 

Jamie Wyngaart: I'm sorry, this is blatant bullying. That's let me tell the restaurant. I don't like pineapples on pizza. So you basically move all the pizzas, the has pineapples on from your menu. Otherwise I'm never going to come to your restaurant. What? Do you know? And I can understand them saying look, Joe Rogan made racial slurs.

Jamie Wyngaart: He made comments about COVID and that's, that might not be the correct thing to do, but then I'm just not going to listen to Joe Rogan. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: That's what I was going to 

Jamie Wyngaart: say. I mean, blame the platform for, or allowing him to say those things. That's up to me as a consumer, what I want to listen to. And just on that topic, a friend of mine actually just yesterday, went through, show me, share some music with me on Spotify.

Jamie Wyngaart: He searched for it. And because this whole controversy on Spotify now looking at who the who's participating into the Spotify community, the track he wanted to show me was also removed. And he felt really bad about it because he feels he's paying for Spotify is paying to listen to the music he wants to [00:09:00] listen to, or listen to what everyone wants to listen to.

Jamie Wyngaart: He didn't feel that it was their right to remove what he wants to listen to because now they're not going to give him a refund. They can take you to do whatever they want now, but Spotify behave that way because they felt threatened as a brand by somebody bullying them and dictate to them what needs to be on or off the platform, because they personally felt offended with us.

Jamie Wyngaart: Like I'm not even listening to Joe Rogan stuff on Spotify at all. And even some of the other people that have been removed to Spotify yet the consumer is now suffering. We don't even know what's going on in these people's personal lives. And I think it's a bit very unfair because a lot of people are doing a lot of problematic things, but just because you're in a position where what you do is more public,

Jamie Wyngaart: you could mow, you get worse with the scrutiny in the public guy. It seemed like, you know, you wrong and you need to get canceled. We are going to blatantly, almost everybody is catching up. Things is going to offend somebody else. So. [00:10:00] 

Kirsten Maarschalk: Uh, I've, I've never been a huge Joe Rogan fan and it's got nothing to do with, you know, the information he shares.

Kirsten Maarschalk: He interviewed some incredible people and with mixed opinions and mixed expertise. Um, on the one side, I, I, I get the arguments of misinformation because there's so much false news out there. Everybody's got a microphone and a voice. And they they're saying things that don't necessarily have the evidence to back it up with.

Kirsten Maarschalk: Um, but I am a Neil young fan, so now I'll go on and Spotify, I use Spotify. It's very convenient for me. I have it on my phone. I have it on my laptop. I listen to it in my car every morning. Um, And now I'll go on and, and I can listen to Neil young and like you say, not just Neil young, but so many other artists.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And then I go online and I see like fans are pressurizing Taylor swift to remove her music from Spotify. Now imagine the pressure that she's got, because then the argument comes up. If you're not against it, you're for it. So now Taylor Swift, the pressure's on you to make a decision girl. Either you keep your music on, or you're agreeing with Joe Rogan and how is [00:11:00] that fair?

Kirsten Maarschalk: Like that's, that's a statement that really, really annoys me because sometimes you just don't want to be, you just don't want to be in the circle. Like you guys fight, carry on and have your argument. Neil pull your music off Spotify. Joe you talk about whatever. I don't want to be involved. I just want to listen to my Taylor swift or whatever it is that you're listening to.

Kirsten Maarschalk: You know? So how does that argument come into play of? Like, if you're not, if you're not against that, you for it, that's, that's just not fair to me. 

Jamie Wyngaart: This has become almost like religion. People saying, if you don't believe this, you believe that if you don't, like you're saying, this is what, what cancel culture has created.

Jamie Wyngaart: If you're not against them, you for them, which isn't always the, that's not the situation. Cause now Taylor Swift might not even know what Joe Rogan said because she's not a Joe Rogan. I don't know. I'm speaking out of whatever here. But now she's pressurised to do to make a decision that technically might have nothing to do with it at all.

Jamie Wyngaart: And because people are pressurizing for something and you're not, it might've been [00:12:00] two people that even listen to the music, just because this is another thing. If you're not going to do it, we assume you believe we not assuming we're going to say that you are for this person that we don't like. And that is completely unfair.

Jamie Wyngaart: It's like being a vegan and saying, oh, because I'm a vegan, nobody else gets to eat meat. And if you eat meat, you go against all these other things. And now I hate you. And if anyone else is associated with you, whether they're vegan or not, they also canceled. You're not allowed to buy certain shoes, not todrive a certain car, because just say it like as a, as a vegan situation, but it's, it's a bit ridiculous.

Jamie Wyngaart: And the psychology behind cancel culture. If I'm going to touch on this, it's, it's a, a bottomless pit. It's a cycle of. Of needing and wanting power. It comes from, it comes from a good place. And I can understand that. But this thing of feeling feeding the sense of achievement and entitlement, when you get what you want, that is, what's feeding this cancel [00:13:00] culture, but it's difficult to stop it because now you're under threat now.

Jamie Wyngaart: And as a brand economically, it's easy for you to take a step back then to jump into the fight and then to say why you should keep your music on Spotify or why you should participate or not participate in something. Because for you just to cut ties, is easy, but there's so much more like, wait, where do you, when you put your foot down, when you say, okay, look, we hear you great, but we've had enough.

Jamie Wyngaart: And this is what we can to do as a band. What needs to happen with cancel culture instead of canceling someone you need to rehabilitate them, I would say, or educate them. So in the case of, of Joe Rogan with these, with this. Things that you'd like to mention always misinformation on COVID don't just cancel the guy offer assistance are fair.

Jamie Wyngaart: Say, look joke, Joe Rogan will help you validate your facts will help you gather the information that to me, I feel it's more [00:14:00] constructive. That to me is more collaborative, but the easy way out is, Nope, you cancel the easy way out to create an argument. My opinion is more valid than your opinion. That is what cancel culture has become.

Jamie Wyngaart: And that's what I don't 

Kirsten Maarschalk: agree with. Yeah. And it's the thing has become such a volatile environment because it's not even the case of, um, okay, cool. Well, if you don't take Joe Rogan or Spotify, just using this example, you know, you're going to lose a couple of followers. In some cases for some brands it's like your whole business can shut down from what something that someone happens to say or do, or whatever.

Kirsten Maarschalk: That's really got nothing to do with your brand. You know? And, and I like the idea of rehabilitation and what it was quite interesting for me is Brené brown then released another post to say that. She wasn't, she wasn't part of the cancel culture by putting that message out, which I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with, but anyway, we'll we'll believe her.[00:15:00] 

Kirsten Maarschalk: Um, she said she was pressing pause to take time, to understand the situation and to go into the discussions with Spotify as a podcast, as a creator who. You know, in the platform and apparently Spotify then sat down like a lot of their creators and spoke about what are their terms and conditions. What can they do to avoid misinformation being put out there?

Kirsten Maarschalk: How do they manage the situation to keep all artists happy? And that I agree with, you know? Um, but it, but it's funny how it's driven. It's driven by. The people on the ground, the consumers, the listeners. And while, like we say, that's so empowering to know that people can have the power to do something.

Kirsten Maarschalk: Unfortunately, I think in any space of authority, it goes to some people's heads and that's when people act completely irrational. 

Jamie Wyngaart: What, what I would trust is, the basic supply and demand. That's basic business. If I want it, I'll consume it if I don't want it, but I don't have [00:16:00] to tie to use miles or create an authority to make my opinion more valid than somebody else.

Jamie Wyngaart: And then say, because this is what I want. No one else. This is what everybody wants. And because it's what I don't want. Nobody else is allowed to add. I really feel it's just on what do you want? Because. Technically, if people want to listen to somebody. And if people don't want to listen to somebody, they won't, that's the basics, let people do what they want, let them live their lives.

Jamie Wyngaart: Because if you feel like you don't learn something, relax, bro. Like they just don't listen. They just turn it off. Just checking it out. We deleted 

Kirsten Maarschalk: Spotify and carry on. You know, what I relate to too is, you know, when you in traffic, I find it so funny. People are in their cars, in their little safe bubble and someone cuts them off and it's like, they hooting and they're throwing zaps everywhere and they swearing and they're saying the most horrific things.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And in that moment in their safe bubble, they can do and say what ever they want because no one. Okay. Nine [00:17:00] times out of 10, we've had a lot of situations. It's good violence, but no, one's really going to come and give them backlash about it. And that's, that's what cyber bullying and this whole cancel culture is about is like I'm over here texting from my phone.

Kirsten Maarschalk: I can say whatever I want, because come and get me, you know, we can have this argument, but that no one can really get me. I'm in my safe bubble. And the same as like the person in the car. Would you react the same way to someone standing in front of you in Woolies or in checkers or whatever you wouldn't, because now it's a real person to person thing.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And then it comes back to have your opinion, by all means, say what you want, believe what you want. Like, I'm big on that. You must, you must, you must live your life and make your own decisions as long as what you are doing and saying is not harming other people. Yeah. And that's where it comes down. 

Jamie Wyngaart: Yeah, I completely agree with that.

Jamie Wyngaart: If you're not harming anybody, that's cool. But then the reality is you're always in a harm. Somebody in some way, always offends somebody in some way, but I I'll break [00:18:00] it down to intention. Are you intending to harm somebody? What is your intent behind your actions or your words and what you say? Because you can easily say something and to be innocent, but to someone else who can complete the offensive, but take it from where the person's coming from.

Jamie Wyngaart: Are they trying to hurt? Or are they just being themselves, but what I want to mention and comment on your, your, your car situation or your situation and your keyboard warrior situation. It's so easy for me to say what I want behind the keyboard. And that's because there's a lack of empathy. I wouldn't say the same thing to somebody.

Jamie Wyngaart: If I knew who they were, if I knew the presence that I'm in right now is in a hurry or in late for an interview or late for work or something important, I'll probably be more empathetically than cutting. I'm probably going to give them, give them a space to cutting because I understand what's going on.

Jamie Wyngaart: And we live in, in the world where things are so fast-paced and so disconnected. We call it connected by being in touch with everybody, but could loosen the connectivity around [00:19:00] how we feel and relate to this. Hey, we can create more empathy or be more empathetic and tied to understand. This is one of my last point of view is some people are just really bad, bad people, but even them being bad, people stems from some way what happened in their lives.

Jamie Wyngaart: What is the kind of situation? Cause I feel like give people a better for the doctor because not everybody is timed to get you. Not everybody is cutting in front of you because they want you to be late. They're not doing this to you. Don't make it about you. Like re like literally another case of relaxed because people take things too personally.

Jamie Wyngaart: And if feel like the universe is against them, so they retaliate or what else actually, they projecting their feelings and the projecting, what they feel about themselves and making it out as you are telling me that I, this way I am that or all of these things, because they actually internally feel, this is what they're currently dealing with.

Jamie Wyngaart: And if they don't. Someone else's point of view and they don't want to accept someone else's [00:20:00] point of view. This is where this bullying and mob mentality comes in with cancel culture and a whole lot of other violence and a whole lot of anger issues. It's because of the empathy. What I would love is for humanity as a whole, I would say has a number of South Africa speech, but I would love for people to start just being more accepting.

Jamie Wyngaart: And trying to understand people. I know it's exceedingly difficult to ask. I'm asking you to show them asking big, big promises here, but something that I tried to do, no matter whether I'm in an argument with them in a peaceful situation, it's just taught to understand we, the person that maybe can't defend themselves at now, what might they have to say about this?

Jamie Wyngaart: What was going on in their mind for them to say something like this, and that's going to help. If people adopt that mentality of trying to put your brain, it's very difficult. I'm going to, honestly, it is a difficult thing to do. It might sound [00:21:00] psychotic to do this. I don't think anyone can think for somebody else, but don't take things personally, when someone says something offensive to you, it can even just help you with your inner peace because we take, even when things are our personal attack, just find your peace.

Jamie Wyngaart: Find yourself. And I would say deal, but this thing of cancel culture of trying to influence everybody else to join your team too, and trying to attack, uh, like calm down to that, please. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: So the other side of the coin is. I listened to a very interesting, um, talk by John Vlismas this week. I'm such an intellectual guy.

Kirsten Maarschalk: Um, it's funny because I actually didn't like him as a comedian. I found his humor like quite dark and, and hurtful and harmful to a lot of people. And that's what he openly admits is that that's what was funny. You know, he would have his racial slurs or, uh, you know, misogynistic jokes and, and stabs, and he realized he actually, wasn't [00:22:00] helping the situation.

Kirsten Maarschalk: But anyway, change the topic. So he came on and said, you know, we are in a world where. Everyone's got a microphone, everyone's got a platform to speak and that's amazing, but we have a responsibility as creators, as you know, people standing on their soap box to make sure that if you're going to say something and if you're going to have an opinion about it, that you've done your research and you know what you're talking about, and you're saying something that's not going to harm other people.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And it struck a chord with me because obviously. Um, in this creative space as are you where we creating content and sharing our voice and opinion at other people. And it makes so much sense that, you know, we have to, uh, really research and make sure that we're saying the right thing, when you going up there and, and, and sharing our voices, keep them.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And I think that comes down from, you know, podcasts. To, uh, you know, television shows like yours, uh, anyone sharing an article or an opinion online, but then even the person [00:23:00] commenting, like have the responsibility to make sure that whatever it is that you are sharing is, is correct and fair and not harmful.

Jamie Wyngaart: Now, what I feel about this is everybody has Google in the Palm of their hand, but the situation of trying to find the research. People are lazy. It's easier for me to just say whatever. I want to go into something. And that's where the problem lies of, I want to say this, like this conspiracy theorist, and it looks sometimes, I'm sorry to admit that he's a bit entertaining, but he's going to spit as he theories, but I'll also feel when something just gets sucked out of the air and people run with it and believe it.

Jamie Wyngaart: I want to commend people on the creativity. But what I don't enjoy is when someone that can people sometimes are telling you people make a conspiracy theory just for the fun of it. And it becomes into a cult following. And like the what's this spaghetti religion, that's also [00:24:00] going around as now where their wishes spaghetti.

Jamie Wyngaart: And it's, it's funny to begin with, but then people believe it. And what have you, you don't understand. Conspiracy theorist is how it's so easy to believe a conspiracy, but it's so difficult for them to believe experts to the point where they fight experts. To push the conspiracy, but the conspiracy doesn't have any ground.

Jamie Wyngaart: Even I was looking at flat earth. Yes. It was an entire show about flat earthers, and I would love. This is if I had enough money, I'll do this. I'll give a band prize just to follow others around, to find the end of the day. I'm starting to say not to offending it, that I just think it will be. But all they see if we can put a fund together and that will define the edge of it.

Jamie Wyngaart: And I want to watch that I'll watch that show, 

Kirsten Maarschalk: but I'm there for the travels. It sounds like we're going to [00:25:00] go

Jamie Wyngaart: through fun, but we'll come through the fact that this is how this entire community. Became established because of believing in a certain cause believe in said thing, going against a, what we see as a bigger power. And this is again, a power struggle. Let's that fight for belief that fight for power because you do feel empowered when people stand by you.

Jamie Wyngaart: When people believe you, when people support you. And it's often, I can't say often, but at ease, you mainly. To thrive off that kind of feel good inside when people are back in the up, and it's not even the case of gas culture, that is just being a human. You like it when people are there for you. So it's very easy to understand why some people might cancel someone or push an agenda or push their personal agenda, or even just say, make a statement, make a conspiracy theory, just to push the button.

Jamie Wyngaart: Because they can also use the strongare of cancel culture of if you're not against him, you for him [00:26:00] to help push your cause to help get more people joining the bandwagon. Because now it's just making you look more powerful of state. This is the person that started it all. We now think in Spotify. Because it's something that Joe Rogan said, but I'm the one that said they must do it.

Jamie Wyngaart: So I'm the one that's taking the glory and feeling powerful about. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: That's true. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: Yeah, I think what's interesting is going back to what I was saying just now about like like egos and people feeling quite powerful in certain situations, especially with his authority. And, um, I think something that's not outlined to me as well as. A lot of people who become influential in whatever space, you very often see that they get to a point where they've started to feel invincible and that, you know, they've, they've got this following and they can do and say whatever they want.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And that just is what it is. We've seen the lax with. Gareth cliff. I mean, funny enough, John Vlismas actually spoke about it very openly and very publicly in his talk [00:27:00] where, you know, he has had opinions that have been very harmful and also. Totally opinionated and, and assumptious about so many various things.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And I think like the lacks of an R Kelly. Okay, fine. His situation was completely different, but so many celebrities that have been canceled it's happened to them because they've got to a point where that felt invincible and that that can do and say when they want 

Jamie Wyngaart: Ellen Ellen DeGeneres, for instance, I, I actually really admire it, but I'm sorry to say this.

Jamie Wyngaart: Uh, it turns out she's been creating the toxic work environment. We, we never see this show. We need to see this in the active and able to see this from finding Nemo but behind the scenes she's been making the pedal and making it the video all the time for staff. And then I don't like, but then also feel like they just don't work for, you know, we don't like for some people, some people are able to thrive in, in different kinds of work in vitamins.

Jamie Wyngaart: Don't [00:28:00] feel comfortable with somebody will do becomes, but I think it's the same, like with any corporate that you work in for just that she's a big face and now she gets canceled for it. And look, she, apparently she decided to step down from a TV show. It was extremely successful. I don't think that's a decision she made an own, but I think it was just about not being told.

Jamie Wyngaart: We cancel your show and they expect. In that space, but in her, in her situation, create this toxic working by. Toxic is toxicity as bad as that easy as also relative some people like working on a picture, some people like when the boss yells at them, some people like when they bus, she has demand. So there's also all these, these things.

Jamie Wyngaart: Like that's one name that I can think of. Also look at JK Rowling only she's she made transphobic tweets and she stands by it. Um, and she came this big. Harry Potter franchises? Entire new university created that creates a huge fan base. It [00:29:00] created careers for a lot of actors for lots of film crews and things.

Jamie Wyngaart: So it was very difficult for them to separate JK Rowling, the person from the entire Harry Potter universe. Universal. Was it world? Um, now what they do is they just put the name Vinnie small in the subtitles, in the other stuff that. Because. That's this too much money to lose by the counselor. So she's literally, she's still involved, but involved in behind the scenes really ways.

Jamie Wyngaart: Where do you, where does this thing? What I think is really sad is able to get uncle Leon with the on Schuster. He got CA and look, I completely understand that if you, if you watch his content right now does seem racially insensitive. I can't say, see what I'm saying. Seem lightly at ease with sensitive, but we grew up long into it.

Jamie Wyngaart: We grew up not thinking, oh, that's racist. We grew up thinking, oh, that's funny because I think as, as some [00:30:00] Africans or maybe this is Africa, I grew up. And I still see this today. When there's trauma, we laugh about. But because somebody got offended, you can not find any of these things on Showmax on these platforms.

Jamie Wyngaart: You have to go find the cassette some way. And at the no, we to go watch one of these things, but that also made a big knock these career, like, you know, you was really trying to make a come. He was making some more movies. That's not the same, like the post. But I do find that extremely sad. Yes. It gives an example to other people to say, Hey, don't make fun of these things, but also feel each to their own.

Jamie Wyngaart: If you're going to be a comedian that makes racial comments and people don't like you, then they're not going to listen to you. But the people do like it. What I also want to say that don't feel that if you are racist, you're racist. Whether people make jokes about it with the people do whatever, but that's just who you are.

Jamie Wyngaart: And I don't think things are going to influence you to become more like. [00:31:00] 

Kirsten Maarschalk: I'm going to stop being racist because Leon just is no longer on if you're a racist, you're racist and that's your bloody problems effects. Yeah, 

Jamie Wyngaart: that's wrong.

Jamie Wyngaart: This, this plaster has over a situation that doesn't fix things. You need to go to the coin to go watch the root to the situation. Yeah. And so that out, like why did we find this jokes funny? Maybe we, the problem, 

Kirsten Maarschalk: it's a, it's such a fine line. It's a, it's a very, it's a very sensitive topic to trade on as south Africans and.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And it's, there's two things that I see about it. And the one is that exactly like you saying, you know, we also have Africans, that's what we do. We make light of situations. Look at like Kevin Fraser, you know, does the, the different, um, um, tailors in different, um, supermarkets. And, and it's so funny because we can all relate to it.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And it's all relatable. And Trevor Noah, I mean, Trevor, Noah highlights [00:32:00] race as big and boulders as can be, and it gives us a space to laugh about it. Trevor Noah has a very different experience with race than Leon Shuster does. That's the first thing. Um, but I think like, you know, I really agreed a lot with what John Vlismas was saying.

Kirsten Maarschalk: We by making fun of it, doesn't help the situation, but it is a balance because I'm with you, like, you know, it, it makes us laugh and it does make us connect. I mean, if you saw one of, uh, Trevor Noah's shows where he was, he was, uh, talking about racism and they showed people. Often after the show, how they were like laughing and joking about it and kind of like throwing words around that we don't ever want to hear or use in South Africa going like it's taking the power away from this word.

Kirsten Maarschalk: Let's just connect to south Africans and have fun. Yeah. 

Jamie Wyngaart: Whatever, if you hide things away, if you shove things away, you give you the power to control you. If you talk openly about it. And I want to say the same thing [00:33:00] with Steph. People think of remove, move the statues and the entire history of its reasonable statue existed will fall away.

Jamie Wyngaart: Nope. If we empower ourselves to say that that statue has no power over me and I'm going to make, I'm going to celebrate, then we've overcome this, uh, change the narrative completely. But if you feel, if you still feel threatened by words, by racial slurs, by statues, by, by pictures, by video. It's still as power over you.

Jamie Wyngaart: You need to relax and lease that power over you. And it is that you are more powerful than those things, and you don't need to find that power by having people join you and jump on a bandwagon and cancel something to remove something you more empowered when they're able to view something in the face and say, you don't affect me.

Jamie Wyngaart: And 

Kirsten Maarschalk: I love that stands for, for people who have been affected. Like, obviously my situation is even very different to yours is different to any other south Africans. We've all got our background, was how we grew up in how certain things have [00:34:00] impacted us. So I can't speak on behalf of people of color who have been affected.

Kirsten Maarschalk: Um, but I think like the other thing to be careful of, and we're going way off topic here, but, um, The way we've all been raised. Like for me, I wasn't raised in an apartheid environment where I was growing up in black and white were separate. And that's how we saw people. But generations before were raised that way.

Kirsten Maarschalk: And there's certain things that get pre-programmed and that filter down in generations. And even though we, we change and we become different people, I think that we do have to become. Very careful of the mindset and the things that we joke about and who's joking about them. But yeah, again, I'm going to say it's a balance.

Kirsten Maarschalk: Let's make light of certain things, but at least be very aware of, again, it comes down to the two. What we're saying is this hurtful? I do. I have the right to joke about. 

Jamie Wyngaart: Yeah, that's really about empathy. Cause you saying all these different backgrounds, but if we empathetic towards others, I can [00:35:00] understand our backgrounds different.

Jamie Wyngaart: And feel it and understand that and believe it, that our opinions and everything is different. We're going to look the real life. We're going to find that on people's because we know, okay. She can say that he can say that he can be there because I accept them for their, on what they believe. And if my beliefs are different, I don't have to shove my beliefs onto anybody else.

Jamie Wyngaart: I think just the, my piece for life, believing what I believe, whether it's good, whether it's bad, as long as I'm not trying to intentionally hurt anybody. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: And it comes down to understanding. So like, I can't make a joke about a Patek because I can't understand what the victims went through. I can try, I can be empathetic.

Kirsten Maarschalk: I can try and put myself in their shoes, but I've never been in issues. So for me to make a joke about it, there's then insensitive. But for someone who. And why did you find

Jamie Wyngaart: the consumers will be able to relate to it? Exactly. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: Exactly. Yeah, but I think it's a victim. If you can find a way [00:36:00] to, to eliminate the power that it holds over you, I think that's very powerful in itself. I'm going to stop there before you, and I say anything that gets us canceled. Cause you know, we don't have that same sense of that is, but it is nice to have these conversations and bring it up.

Kirsten Maarschalk: I think we live in a. You know, too scared to talk openly about these things. And I think we need to educate each other about our different perspectives and understand it. And that comes down from not only race, but, but gender, sexuality, religion, any other topic, which podcasts that you like to listen to on Spotify, let's understand each other's opinion.

Kirsten Maarschalk: Then let's be responsible about our content and responsible about how we respond to each other's company. 

Jamie Wyngaart: I actually didn't want any of your photos out there. If they get canceled something and how do we make them feel? How did that make you, they were part of a cancel culture situation, or maybe what they, a victim of being threatened to be canceled.

Jamie Wyngaart: I think that's actually interesting to hear [00:37:00] how people. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, if you, if you have had any firsthand experience with cancel culture, drop us a comment, join in the conversation. We'd love to hear more of it, but Jamie, thank you. I always love speaking to you and I hope we get to chat some more again, down the line.

Jamie Wyngaart: Definitely. Thank you so much. 

Kirsten Maarschalk: Have a good one. Ciao.