Robert Dos Santos - Storytelling and Evoking Emotion

Robert Dos Santos is an International Award-Winning Director who has a unique and powerful way of telling stories through videos.

His work is inspiring and moving and he is the perfect guest to interview about how to evoke emotions.

Intro footage courtesy of Robert Dos Santos on Vimeo - https://vimeo.com/robdos

Showreel credit: https://vimeo.com/713144107
Behind the scenes footage: https://vimeo.com/651471113

See more at https://www.robertdossantos.com/

Transcript

Wow. Rob, it's so good to have you with me for this podcast. I think if we're gonna be discussing anything, storytelling and how to evoke emotions, you are definitely the person to speak to. I think your work is absolutely amazing. So thank you so much for joining me. 

Thank you very much for having me.

I'm really happy to be here. 

So your job is director and I know that it's a role that has transitioned, um, in your career going from law, into w orking in production and now as a director, but what exactly does your role entail? Like what does a director do? 

So, I've figured out only fairly recently that the, the term of a director is pretty broad and is very different,

I think depending on, uh, the area of the profession and then also depending on the person themselves, um, you get technical, uh, directors and performance driven directors, and then you get, uh, directors in film. You get directors in TV series, you get directors in commercials and all of them fulfill different roles.

Um, And come in at different places. A good example of that, is in a film. Your director's basically God, everybody listens to the director and whatever he says goes. But then when you jump over into the TV realm,  TV series and all the rest is there,  it's, they're kind of a gun for hire and you've got your, your script writers who are the actual leads of, the series and they dictate what happens.

And you'll have a handful of directors coming in, directing a single episode. And,  they're only there to kind of fulfill the function of making sure that what the writers have written and want to happen. Um, to most extent. There's, there's obviously some that are a lot more hands on.  It's interesting that everyone kind of has this idea that a director is the be all and end all, and it's not necessarily always the case.

Sometimes on a commercial, it's very much the same thing. I've been chatting to a production company I'm working with in, Los Angeles, and there in America, the American system is, your director is actually only on set. They're not involved at all before, and they're not involved at all after.  If, if they're involved in the edit, that's quite rare.

So what'll happen is the director will get his boards and the boards are basically the storyboards, which show art what the shots need to be. And they walk onto set, they tell everybody how to do what they need to do, and they're kind of more of a liaison between the agency and client and the crew. And,

as  as they're done shooting, he's off and they never see him again. He doesn't see the edit, he doesn't do sound, he doesn't do, uh, color grading. None of that.  Whereas the European system and in the South African system, a little bit more hands on, so for me I was taught wrong,  doing law, uh, I had no idea what it was or what it is.

So  I just understood the directors, the person who does everything. So I taught myself wrong by teaching myself,  a bit of everything. So I tried to teach myself makeup, um, hair wardrobe, color schemes, um, Production design, uh, camera composition, lighting. Um, and the funny thing is, is you don't necessarily need that as a director.

As a director, you just need to know what the end goal is. And what you do is you hire people who are proficient at those particular jobs, and then you tell them, This is what I want. So to be a good director, I think you need, probably two qualities. One, you need to have an idea of what you want, a very solid and concrete idea.

And then two, you need to be able to explain that idea to perfection. And I think those are probably the two good qualities of the director. Um, 

That must be quite a big talent, just being able to explain the idea, because obviously everything you're doing is visual and we often find with our clients as well,  you know, whether it's coming from the client's brief or from our strategy, like to get people to align on something

visual is often very difficult. Because you can picture it in your head, but what you interpret and what someone else interprets is quite difficult. Yes, 

that's 100% correct. So you need to get quite detailed into it, and that's why treatments, pitch documents, storyboards, scripts are very, very important and you need to have your hand in those, if not make them yourself.

Mm-hmm. , um, So,  by mistake, I taught myself design. Cause I thought, okay, I need to know how to design, so I need to be able to show and draw and show everybody what it is that's going on. But it's served me well because it's, it's now you're able to be very clear. Um, So that's, that's, that's also quite an important part of the whole, 

 But don't you think it's, it's beneficial.

I mean, you keep saying it's a mistake or you taught yourself wrong. And I know you say you don't need to know those things, but isn't it beneficial when you're giving a brief to a makeup artist or to whoever's involved, if you've got this very specific idea of how you want something to come out, doesn't, don't you find it helps you to have that background?

Yes, , I'd be lying if, , I said it was not beneficial. It's, it's in, in fact, I almost think it's mandatory. Uh, even though I say it's a mistake cuz you don't need it because you honestly don't need it. As long as you know what it is you want and you've got the right people with you, you, you don't need to have it.

Uh, but at the same time, you're not always going to be armed with people who are , at the top, perfection, you might not know, uh, the ins and outs, but if you do, you're able to more, uh, better explain yourself. And if it's not coming right, you're able to tell them what to do. , and that might, uh, annoy one or two people, but at least you're able to, push to get exactly what it is that you want.

Yeah. So. I think in saying that, , my old, , Jewish boss, um, while I was a lawyer, uh, wonderful, wonderful man, um, he always used to say, you know, everything or you know, nothing because, , in law, if, if you forget one case, , the whole thing can go to shambles. And I think the same's true for directing and filmmaking is, um, you, you kind of have to know everything or, , you're not acting with intention.

If you're not moving the camera correctly and the wardrobe's not matching the background or contrasting against it to give some sort of emotion. You kind of just getting lucky. And I think eventually the luck runs art. So, you know, I think it's actually,  important even though I did do it wrong. 

So on the note of, visual interpretations, because exactly like I say, you have this idea in your mind and  you can go to all the lenghts to try and articulate and obviously to capture it.

Like that's your main job is to capture those specifics. But a lot of your stuff is quite artistic and I'm a big lover of art because, a lot of the time it's left up to your own individual interpretation. So how do you find with your work, how much of it is, is meant to be left up to individual interpretation and how much of it is meant to deliver like a very specific message that should be kind of obvious.

So I think you have to do both strangely enough, I think you have to,  deliver something which,  gives a specific message. I think if you go out there and you're like, I'm just going to, at least for me, I think there's, everybody has their own ways and means, but for me, uh, if I go out there and I. Just throw something into, I'm like, Let's see what people feel about this.

I feel like I haven't done my job. I feel like it's maybe a bit lazy, uh, because you can kind of just do that with anything. They just put some cool images together and see what happens. It's , it's kinda like with just writing a letter, writing a poem, anything like that is, is you have an idea and you need to get that idea across.

And it's quite difficult because everybody views the world in a different way. So you have to use, a movement that's in a worldwide sense, and you need to use colors in a worldwide sense and actions in a worldwide sense, so that that can all be interpreted in the same way. But then again, if you're just,  Telling people what to think, they get bored very quickly.

No one wants to be told what to think. Uh, we all wanna figure it out. So you kind of have to layer it a little bit and,  suggest and, and hint at what it is, but in a clear enough way that you're leading them there. And it's, it's one of those things if, if you tell someone something, they'll just forget it. But if you, if you let them figure it out,  they'll, they'll remember it and it'll go all the way in.

So that's kind of the philosophy I adopt. And hopefully,  I'll pull it off every now and then. 

I think you absolutely do, and I think that's the, that's the key to being successful and especially in,  the advertising space, in building commercials, and even from outside in marketing. You want to be able to evoke an emotion and get people to feel something when they watch it and to, to like have this moment, I mean, in,

in, um, some of your work that I've seen in most of it, you kind of have this like aha moment at the end, or there's definitely like this crescendo to what you're feeling.  So emotions are so, so, so important. But how do you know exactly what kind of emotions you want to evoke? You know, when you, when you're putting a film together?

So, 

uh, I think two, two answers to that is one is  you know, pretty early on because,  of the intention of the piece. Um, uh, if you, like, say the Mercedes thing, you, you wanna create a sense of wonderment and just, um, just wow. Is, uh, so that, so immediately like this, this is our intention, with,  the Restonic one where the young girl goes to space, that's about inspiration.

You know, you wanna be inspired, let's create something of someone being inspired. So that happens quite early on. And then, from that, you kind of get into the scripting phase, and especially when writing is, I will feel that very specific emotion while writing it. Um, because if I don't feel it while I'm writing it and envisioning it, it's not going to translate at the very end.

 So what happens is it's about finding that emotion in the beginning, um, conjuring it up through images and story, and then hoping to sustain that in your mind and your body for long enough so that you can put it into picture and music and then carry that through. So it's, it's, I suppose, starts at the beginning and you have to really

 conjure it up at some point and then keep that. 

Yeah, absolutely. Funny enough, Restonic is, the example I was thinking of. Um, you know, I could imagine getting this client brief of like, "we want to sell a good night's rest." "We want to sell being able to  dream big while you sleep" or, you know, that kind of being the idea.

But then going from that basic idea to this hugely inspirational sort of like female empowerment story of this young girl achieving, you know, the most unlikely future and these big, bold dreams. Um, That's amazing. Does that kind of stuff get led from you? I mean, does the client brief kind of remain basic, that it leaves a lot of creativity up to you?

Or how do you get from that point to creating this beautiful emotional story? 

So again, I think this goes back to me learning things wrong, is, um, so what usually would happen is,  especially in advertising, is they come to you with boards and the advertising team, the copywriter, um, and the art director, they come up with an idea along with the team, and then they put an idea together then, Once they've got that, and they've proved that with client, they go look for a production company and get a director to then go make their idea come,  true.

Um, so I, I didn't know that. So I thought, okay, well I'm gonna come up with the idea and then I'm gonna go and shoot it. So from the very first thing I've done,  I've come up with the idea,  pitched it to client and said, "Hey,  this is what I think you guys should do." And fortunately that's kind of caught on, and now I get bigger things where people are like, "Cool, we've got this roundabout idea", or "We have no idea.

What do you think? Where should we take this?" And then I'll take that seed, or I'll just walk into the empty room and then. Um, come up with an idea, but it's, it's very much,  okay, what is our end goal? What is that intention? , and how do we translate that intention,  into a visual story, which,  achieves that goal and that intention.

So very much from the screenwriting process, all the way up until the end,  which for me is, it's almost become mandatory because I love every single part of this process. It's, it's,  not necessarily the result, The result's great, but it's, it's the act of coming up with an idea, writing it down,  like putting on music, getting those, those ideas going, getting onto set, sitting in a dark room and editing, doing the music and the sound.

That: the whole process is what makes it enjoyable. Uh, 

You can actually tell that in your work. You can tell that you are passionate about every step and that you've been involved in every detail. So, so that's kind of,  a best case scenario process where everything goes smoothly and you and the client agree.

But has there been a situation, because I know we've definitely had it before from like a graphic design perspective or creative campaign where the client disagrees with our direction and goes in a direction that we don't necessarily agree with. And then you come to this like ethical standpoint of we don't really wanna put our name on something like that, because design-wise, it's not the kind of thing we wanna put out there.

Or you know, we're at logger heads because the client wants what they want and we try and give advice and you have to somewhere, you know, find a middle ground. Have you ever had a situation like that where you've got the client brief and just gone like, Oh my God, no, I can't do this. 

So I think there's maybe two answers to that.

One is, I haven't really, because I think, I'm quite fastidious on the, on the, on the idea phase, the production phase early, early on. So it's like, okay, what are we doing? How are we doing it?  What is the process?  And just making sure that everything's very, very, very clear at the beginning so that there are no problems later on.

 So that everybody knows what we're going to do because it's, I'm sure, you know, it's incredibly costly to go on set to shoot and to hire all these people. So having things clear as day before we step onto set is, is quite important. So,  I haven't, I've been very fortunate. I haven't had anything where we've got it and they're like, Mm, okay, I'm not so sure about this.

 And then perhaps a reason why that happens, the second part of that is,  I think,  with just the things that I do is, is, is, I tell stories in, in the way I shoot. And so that's kind of been the style and that's, that's what I do. So if someone comes to me and they say like, Sell this,  chicken burger and it's 9 99, I'm not, I'm not your guy.

I can't do that. Like, it's someone who's passionate about that and you can knock that out the park, but I'm not gonna do that. If you, if you, if you want something that looks a little bit like a movie or that's that's, it's a story-driven thing than I'm, I'm the guy.  But if it's not that, then, then probably not. So I think with you guys, you are agencies, you've got the whole collection of everybody and you need to deal with,  the many various demands.

Whereas I would be one funnel outlet for an agency. So yeah, a much more niche aspect to that. So I probably don't get it as bad as you guys do . 

It can be a disaster, I promise you. So I wanna touch   on something, um, sort of more relevant to what we do in social media, but very much plays a part, I'm sure in what you do as well. Is over the last couple of years, the trend has changed on social media platforms with,  a big focus on short form content, on mobile first content,

so that's a big thing. Things like YouTube Shorts, even mobile optimized ad campaigns that are shot in portrait, obviously things like reels and TikTok videos, how has that come into play if it has in your industry, and what are your thoughts on that direction? 

So I'll try and answer them in part. I think the impact on the industry has been huge.

Um, a lot of positives, mostly I would say, a few negatives, but I would say, in general, the uptake of work has been tremendous. There are, , an insane amount of,  companies out there sending out work, and it's allowed for,  kind of this burgeoning of,  artists that you see on Instagram. You see so many,  up and coming directors, cinematographers, photographers, 

whereas 10 years ago there was no such a, Not even five years ago, perhaps, there was no such thing as a content creator.  And. Photography was a bit blah blah and so was videography,  and directing et cetera, et cetera. Whereas now it's become an essential service. It's everywhere and it's paid extraordinarily well, and it's very well respected.

Like my parents were not too happy when I wanted to be a writer, so got shipped off to law school, but now I think parents would think twice.  It's, it's really helped the profession and you can see people are doing pretty well. So there's some serious positives to that.  A, a potential, uh, downside is shooting in various formats.

That's an absolute,  pain. And it's, uh, the reason why is because,  there's a huge difference between landscape and portrait and they tell different stories. And for example, and had this recently is if, if you say shooting a foot, a foot on a vertical screen is, is lovely. It goes like that. Good.

Now you put it into portrait. Now the foot's being cut off. So to actually shoot that shot, you need to step all the way back, which means you either need to shoot the shot twice, or you have, um, and to frame it properly for both formats or you need to. Have, um, either one good shot and one very bad shot, or two or alright shots, and I'm, I'm never happy about, compromising the quality.

So that's,  It's not a downside, but it's, it's something that needs to just be, considered and taken care of. And when you're on a set and you're racing against time and trying to maintain quality, the ability to jump back and take two shots,  is a difficulty and explain that to clients and everyone is, um, is, is, uh, is a 

task.

Well, that's the thing. It's not so much of just like sort of cropping to fit the frame. It's a whole different shoot and then you wanna try and get consistency across both your landscape shoot and your portrait shoots. I think that's a difficult thing. I mean, for us as well, we do some, video content for clients and we want to be shooting professional stuff for reals.

But then the understanding is unless we do two shoots, we can only really use it in that platform. We can't now put it onto, you know, your website for a desktop view. Though, funny enough, we, we are looking at a lot of design, more mobile optimized anyway, but um, yeah, it's very interesting and I think the, the fascinating thing, or the inspiring thing that you touched on as well, is how the, the industry has transformed and it's opened up this amazing space for creators in what was previously sort of a, you know, a niche little industry to be in.

And you had to really stand out to make it happen. Now you can become, a photographer, a cinematographer, any kind of content creator, whether you are writing or vlogging or blogging from your home, and I think the resources available to be able to create quality content is also amazing. But on that note, does that, does that also have an impact on,  the professionals in the line of work that you are doing where you're getting these up and coming,  learn from home photographers and videographers, creating content for clients?

Uh, 

so what do, what do you mean by that? Is it like, is it, uh, is there competition? 

Is that what you're asking? Yeah. Does it, do you find it, it takes work away or is it just a completely different client? 

No, so I think, I think a few, There's a few layers to that question is, or to the answer to that question is I think.

There's, there's always a lot going around. There's, there's, there's so much going on. And I think once you delve into the world of competition and watching out for people, I think you're,  I think, think you're gonna have a bad time. I don't think that's a good way to live life. Uh, and then, I think with me is, like I said, is I do my specific way of telling stories and way of presenting stories.

So, and I'm the only one who can do that. It's, it's, it's my specific style. It's the way I do it. So there's literally no one who can compete,  with me for what I do.  Like there'll be people in the same arena and all of that, but the way I do things is, is very, and, and so I'm not too worried about that.

And I think it's actually beautiful. I think having lots of people there with lots of different voices,  putting out work is just tremendous. And if, if there's someone who's got a style that's more specific for something, then that's the right thing to do is go with that person, do that particular, but.

Like I mentioned is there is, there's, there's enough for everybody to eat. There's a tremendous amount of work out there and I'm constantly busy and haven't really felt that.  And if anything, it's just inspiring to just see like how much there is going on. I just love it. 

I think there's also  this,  exponential growth in terms of,  the expectation.

You know, you've gotta, gotta constantly be on your toes and any kind of creation to make sure that  you are up to date with, with what people are asking for and different trends and different styles. I mean, I know you've got a very specific style, but I'm sure it does, , keep you on your feet as well to go, okay, well what's happening in the market?

Because it's so, , sort of fast moving across all different platforms. 

So I would say no. I think for me, very specifically, for me, no. I  very specifically and very consciously do not chase trends. Okay. I think that is a, that is a good way. Again, is like looking out at competition. Like what's going on. Is chasing trends.

Uh, chasing trends is a good way to make yourself mad  you'll never keep up with trends and you'll only ever be a flavor of the week and you'll, you'll, you'll spike. People will be like, Oh my God, look what he's doing. And then you'll be like, Oh my God, everyone loves me. And the way trends are going this now, it's like I would've said a year ago, said like, You'll be cool for a few months and then or a few years and then you're old hat, but now you'll be cool for a week.

Like trends are, are so fast. And personally, I, I have a distaste for the, the word trend.  Storytelling is timeless,  we are still telling the same stories we told 4,000 years ago and we're still paying money to go to cinema to watch those stories and still being astounded at what we learn about ourselves while watching those stories.

So if you can just tell a story in a timeless manner. It's, it's, it's timeless and will remain timeless. And, uh, I think that's, at least for me, uh, the objective.  So I'm, I see what people are doing and take notes and very aware of what's going on in the world. But again, I think it's just,  I know what I like and I know what I do

 and I can only do what I can do. I can't do what other people can do. And I think what if I tried to do that, I would just fail. 

Wow. I'm gonna say that's actually so refreshing to hear.  And just while you were saying that, like speaking about it in the way you told that exact story, you evoked an emotion of me of like, ah, let's take a breath.

Because it is exactly that, you know, that timelessness, I think it's a, it's a, it's a refreshing approach and I think,  being able to  have your mark and just stick to telling quality stories is so much better because you're so right. , Any of the influencers or brands or anything that comes in that, that are like this hot trend.

The quicker you go up, the quicker you come down almost, you know? Whereas if you have this very solid story, I think you're quite right, you become classic and timeless, which is great. And that's 

not to knock trends. I don't wanna knock trends because they're still quite relevant. And I think necessary as a human species is we need that little bit of distraction and, uh, trends do add color to our lives.

If we, we look at, say, the movement in the sixties, that was, uh, a trend. Things lasted longer back then. So it was, the hippie movement was a good five, six year train, but that fell away. And then seventies disco, um, eighties cocaine cowboys in Miami, et cetera, et cetera. It was like little trends. Um, add sparkle and color

to life.  and then that allows you to draw inspiration and then perhaps create something, , layered out of all of those inspirations. But, uh, there's still a, a beauty and a necessity for trends. It's, I'm just not a. Um, trend person. I think the 

balance is, and what I like about what you said is, is not chasing trends not hunting for them, not trying to be trending you know?

 And that's often the advice I give my clients as well, is I, I don't wanna look at competitors. I don't wanna see what everyone else is doing or what's like in the now. How do we speak to  your specific differences, you know, what sets you apart? What are your values? How are you going to add value?  And through that, by being innovative and, you know, telling a story in a different way.

If that creates a  trend or goes viral, then great. But it's not trying to sort of like, aim for a trend or follow a trend, rather,  if you start a trend by being innovative, even better. Yeah. Yeah. So just in closing off, You've obviously achieved so much. I mean, you've won international awards for work.

What's next for you? Like what, what's the next big goal for you? 

Uh, so the next goal is my first feature film.  And I've just recently been offered, um, funding for that by one of the big streamers. Um, Amazing. So, yeah. So gonna jump onto that and really, really looking forward to taking a bite out of

that. 

That sounds incredible. So please keep us updated. I'd be happy to share all those details as in when they come out. It's very, very exciting and I wish you the best of luck with that. 

Thank you very much. I really appreciate 

it.  Hadedas in the background to help us end off.

But thank you so much for your time and I look forward to continuing to watch your work and be inspired by your work and I hope we get to chat again soon. 

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me. Thank you.